Curse

A11Eur0 · Oct 03, 2008, 07:28 AM // 07:28

In that case, you'd think that the entire line of descendants from our current heroes to those in GW2 (given a 20 year generation gap, that's 10 generations) would have their own legacy...son of a hero becoming a hero, son of that hero becoming a hero...etc. Why would it be such a special thing to happen upon the Hall of Monuments of your 200-year ancestor, if their name wasn't forgotten for some reason? Why would the names of the heroes who prevented the Titan uprising, Shiro's return, Abbadon's escape and the invasion of the Great Destroyer be forgotten after only 200 years? Why would a 200-year descendant of that hero not be forged from birth to be a hero as well? Are our characters going to age from adolescence? Probably not.

Maybe we won't happen upon our Hall of Monuments...maybe it'll be there from the start and my theory is completely worthless...just trying to add some flavor.

I'd pretty much rather follow a story of redemption than merely righting a wrong in the world. I'd like to fight against centuries of disrespect and being an outcast for being the descendant of a framed traitor and clear my name, rather than be a privileged member of a legendary dynasty of heroes handed everything on a silver platter and expected from the start to vanquish a new threat to the world. I guess it's wishful thinking and a deep-down love for plot twists. I loved the Tyrian story because that's what it was about...being manipulated and coming back to make it right.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 03, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

First of all, it's 250 years later, not 200. Second of all, 20 years seems too short, imo, for the generation gaps, I'd say 40 years is a bit more accurate, which would be 6 generations.

I think the HoM acts as a "hand-me-down" among the family. That is, every generation that had need of the armor, weapons, etc. used them. Nothing special about it really. That, or the HoM was lost, but that's unlikely.

And children of heroes are not always heroes. So they won't be expected to be heroes, just have an influence on the society. Or even be an average joe, but say "hey that's the son/daughter of so and so."

And I agree, a storyline of redemption>just fighting whatever evil comes along.

I also like plot twists and whatnot (like you work for a guy who says your fighting evil, but then that guy gets corrupted/is evil, arch-type but still good). Or better yet, you are forced to work for the bad guy (Legacy of Kain games come to mind with Raziel, loved him).

A11Eur0 · Oct 03, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

200, 250...whatever. I'm going off the top of my head here. Either way the argument is still valid.

If you factor in the lifespan of equivalent times in real world history(medieval/dark ages), a 20 year generation gap would be about accurate, as life spans were shorter overall. it's hard to apply these life spans to a game with magical properties, insta-healing and resurrect capabilities but as long as we're talking lore...hey why not. I don't think a person whose life is based on fighting evil at the cost of one's own life would wait 40 years before creating an heir.

If you were the son/daughter of somebody famous, you'd have that pressure to either follow in your father/mother's shoes or merely live up to the expectations people have of you. Nobody likes to be the mediocre child of an extraordinary person. I'm sure if Michael Phelps has a child, that child would have a pretty hard time in life if they didn't enjoy swimming, or just weren't good at it.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 03, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

The dark ages were short, however in GW, that is not the case.

If you look at the manuscripts, you can see the "old folks' ages" and the "middle age" ages:

(Post-Searing Prophecies/Factions times)
Adelbern:61
Rurik:32 (at 30 he has yet to have kids)
Devona: 24
Cynn: 20
Mhenlo: 22
Aiden: 32
Kisu: 50
Togo:65
Eve:20
Danika: 22
Argo: 37

(Nightfall times)
Dunkoro: 48 (he looks hella older then that!)
Melonni: 26 (after NF she and Koss finally settle down)
Koss: 25

rest not really important, you get the idea. In GW, most people "settle down" around their 30s. The other heroes of GW would be settling down in their early 30s (some in 40s) by the end of EN. And old is in the 60s. Usually, a good generation set-up is usually that of half of what's considered "old" (current days, that would be 60s-80s, and most people have children no earlier then 30s *those that get married before children that is*).

So saying 30-40 year generations isn't too far off, especially if our character's descendants are meant to be active in the world, due to, as you said, the expectations of people (not always their own choice). In that part, we agree. I just said they aren't always like their parents, just expected to be.

20 year generations is probably more accurate for the common folk, as they would have less that keeps them away from having a family, unlike being heroes or important people.

draxynnic · Oct 07, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

40 years for a generation, however, seems too long. From memory, that's bumping up close to menopause...

I'd probably be inclined to guess a generational gap of 25 years on average, maybe 30. Female heroes may want to leave it until, say, after their 30s so that they're not saddled with a child while adventuring, but it's possible that a female hero may have born a child between Factions and Nightfall before being called to action again and leaving the child to a stay-at-home dad or a hired carer. Male heroes, of course, could be begetting children within a campaign.

Furthermore, there's no guarantee that children will follow their parent's footsteps... or even that they know who their ancestor is. Two hundred and fifty years is a long time - somewhere in that time there may have been an unacknowledged bastard or an orphan or baby delivered on a doorstep whose ancestry was unknown. Possibly the ancestry is known to the family as a distant legend, but their neighbours don't believe it (making finding the Hall a vindication for the character), or maybe the ancestry has plainly and simply been forgotten. I suspect a lot of people here would be surprised to find a historical figure in their family tree within the last 250 years if they went digging. I know there is at least one that is claimed by one side of my family that is pretty significant, but I was pretty surprised when I found out, and I don't think I'll be going to great lengths to make sure any children I have are aware of that piece of family history.

Today, however, in the western world we have the benefit of government and, before that, church records that for most families of European ancestry probably go back at least to somewhere around the Renaissance if enough digging was done to find them. By contrast, it looks like the Guild Wars world might be falling into a Dark Age (at least for humanity), which, I might remind people, is called that because of the lack of records from that time. For a character walking into the Hall of Monuments, it might be less like learning that they are a relative of Napoleon and more like an English or Welsh peasant at around the time of the Norman Conquest learning that one of their ancestors was a Knight of the Round Table.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 07, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I suspect a lot of people here would be surprised to find a historical figure in their family tree within the last 250 years if they went digging.

I know I was surprised when I found out that my grandma bloating about "blue-blood in our veins" actually was telling the truth...

Anyways, yeah, 25-30 seems more likely, especially for the female heroes, I'll conceed my argument on the age, but that doesn't matter that much anyways (because for all we know, people in Tyria could have a 16 year generation gap for common folks).

And I agree that there is a chance that the ancestry is unconfirmed/unknown for some reason in lore. But, there is the chance of that not being the case, especially seeing how the scribes/historians are working harder then ever in GW1 to record things, they would record the heroes and their children (maybe not the heroes' grand children, unless they were someone important).

Humans do seem to be on the decline from GW1 on, but not the same kind of Dark Ages as the one in real life, as there are still documentation going around.

draxynnic · Oct 07, 2008, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Yes, I'd imagine things are probably being recorded better then in our own Dark Ages - the government of Kryta seems to be reasonably stable, for instance, while in the real world I think there is still debate as to whether Arthur existed or not (let alone whether he was a king).

However, I suspect that while grand history is being scrupulously recorded by the Order of Whispers, smaller details like the genealogies of individual families are probably being lost in the upheavals. Now, the Order of Whispers may be keeping special attention on the families descended from the heroes who completed at least one of the campaigns, but that doesn't mean they'll reveal why they're interested.

Shadowmere · Oct 09, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Well I'll add my two cents here on the overall topic.

I for one believe the Livia possobility has a bit more merit than it's being given credit for here. It can be hard to see why Livia would do such a thing as target the very person she swore to restore to power. However I don't think we can discount the possibility of her being corrupted so lightly, yes in all the EotN cutscenes she displays great concern and care for for the wellbeing of her people but she also shows that she's very hellbent on aquiring great power. Which she ostensibly wants to use to end the civil war in Kryta.

It's this hunger for power that would make Livia susceptable to corruption, the temptation to use the power she had for her own ends. But I think any corruption of Livia wouldn't be of her own doing alone, she is very strong willed. But artifacts of the late Abbadon or agents of Dhuum could be a fair bit more persuasive in that matter. Remember that Shiro never wanted to kill the emperor, he was corrupted and driven mad to the point of paranoia by Abbadon's agents. I don't think it's too much of a strech to say that a similar fate could befall Livia, especially when she wields the Scepter of Orr and specifically states she is going to Arah, the very place Vizier Khillbron came under Abbadon's influence.

[as a side note, I believe that Arah is not as destroyed as first believed and that the Scepter of Orr can act as a "key" to access the lost city. The Scepter is of divine creation originally after all.]

Alternatively this theory could also point to Dhuum being the true culprit, if say Livia was corrupted more violently, possessed. I think only Dhuum would be able to pull that kind of stunt off. (Menzies has never struck me very much as the subtle corrupting type)

All that being said, I don't think this theory could be true at all if the mysterious stranger plot is concluded befor GW2, for the si mple fact that Livia is an equipabble hero and the lore conflict it would cause would be too much for it to be put into game (i.e. it wouldn't make a lick of sense to be fighting a "corrupted livia" when you have a regular livia in your party.)

I do agree however that Lazarus/the Mursaat have the most pre-existing motives for masterminding the assassinations. And they being a very adept race of spellcasters creating/finding the power crystals provided to Limm wouldn't be very hard. And it only makes sense that they would resort to assassinations after their numbers had been devestated by the Titans. As for why Cantha and Elona were targeted too; it would have served a dual purpose, the first to cover where the assassinations were coming from and two to weaken those two continents for conquest as well (although it's pretty clear that Kryta was the main target).

Free Runner · Oct 09, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

It's this hunger for power that would make Livia susceptable to corruption, the temptation to use the power she had for her own ends. But I think any corruption of Livia wouldn't be of her own doing alone, she is very strong willed. But artifacts of the late Abbadon or agents of Dhuum could be a fair bit more persuasive in that matter. Remember that Shiro never wanted to kill the emperor, he was corrupted and driven mad to the point of paranoia by Abbadon's agents. I don't think it's too much of a strech to say that a similar fate could befall Livia, especially when she wields the Scepter of Orr and specifically states she is going to Arah, the very place Vizier Khillbron came under Abbadon's influence.

We dont know if the Scepter was Abaddons, Dhumms or pretty much any of the gods. Its also not exactly an artifact of corruption - all the corrupting had been done long before it was possessed by the Lich. Its just a very powerful object that would be very dangerous in the wrong hands.

Also if she had gained the Scepter (which we know she eventually does) there would be no need for Golems and Assassinations - Livia would have her own private army that could help the shining blade. If she had done it in the timeframe between the Great Destroyers defeat and her getting the Scepter that would bring up the question of why did she randomly stop searching, come up with a plan that seems far beyond her and then go back ot searching.

Quote:

[as a side note, I believe that Arah is not as destroyed as first believed and that the Scepter of Orr can act as a "key" to access the lost city. The Scepter is of divine creation originally after all.]

Its not destroyed, its underwater. Like i said in one of my earlier posts there may be some of Arah above water. Or Livia could of simply arrived at the Remains of Orr and found it floating there.

Quote:

Alternatively this theory could also point to Dhuum being the true culprit, if say Livia was corrupted more violently, possessed. I think only Dhuum would be able to pull that kind of stunt off. (Menzies has never struck me very much as the subtle corrupting type)

Which would bring up the question of why Dhuum is corrupting mortals when we know full well that he is broken. His power must be pretty thin by the time M.O.X, N.O.X, R.O.X and P.O.X are created. And from what we know of him, he doesnt have anything against humanity but moreso against Grenth (its more likely he joined Abaddon for the hell of it, with the chances of actually managing to gain his power back rather than trying to strike at humanity).

Shadowmere · Oct 09, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

We dont know if the Scepter was Abaddons, Dhumms or pretty much any of the gods. Its also not exactly an artifact of corruption - all the corrupting had been done long before it was possessed by the Lich. Its just a very powerful object that would be very dangerous in the wrong hands.

I never said the Scepter was corrupting in and of itself, the power it has causes temptation to misuse it but not like the Abbadon style corruption I 'm talking about. The Scepter (and it's sister staff, the Staff of Mists) were created by the gods (no specific one is credited to its creation) as a gift to powerful nations of the world for protection.

What I'm suggesting here is that the wielder of the Scepter (in this case Livia) would be able to access the inner most secrets of Arah. Unless I'm mistaken the Scepter & the Staff of Mists are the only artifacts we have that are believed to have been created by the gods themselves.

Quote:

Which would bring up the question of why Dhuum is corrupting mortals when we know full well that he is broken. His power must be pretty thin by the time M.O.X, N.O.X, R.O.X and P.O.X are created. And from what we know of him, he doesnt have anything against humanity but moreso against Grenth (its more likely he joined Abaddon for the hell of it, with the chances of actually managing to gain his power back rather than trying to strike at humanity).

Dhuum is quite weak, however he may not have lost as much as gained from Abbadons defeat. Remember DoA? Abbadon had a truly massive army that needed a new leader, Mallyx took up the role but was defeated too. That leaves Dhuum and Menzies the only real "powerful" figureheads Abbadons Margonites and demons have to rally behind. Dhuum (or Menzies as well) could in a sense be trying to repeat what Abbadon tried. Sew enough chaos in Tyria that he could manifest himself here. If he did take over all of Tyria he would stand a much better chance against Grenth (or Balthazar for Menzies) than he would trying to take the god on his home turf.

But again maybe it's just my wishful thinking as a way to finally tie up the Dhuum/Menzies storylines.

Free Runner · Oct 09, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

The Scepter (and it's sister staff, the Staff of Mists) were created by the gods (no specific one is credited to its creation) as a gift to powerful nations of the world for protection.

Actually we are never told who created them. Or who gave them. Before Nightfall i would of said the gods had created and given them but there is so much hidden knowledge in Tyria that its best not to assume that.

Quote:

What I'm suggesting here is that the wielder of the Scepter (in this case Livia) would be able to access the inner most secrets of Arah. Unless I'm mistaken the Scepter & the Staff of Mists are the only artifacts we have that are believed to have been created by the gods themselves.

Not sure how the Scepter of Orr would give away the secrets of Arah.

Quote:

Dhuum is quite weak, however he may not have lost as much as gained from Abbadons defeat. Remember DoA? Abbadon had a truly massive army that needed a new leader, Mallyx took up the role but was defeated too. That leaves Dhuum and Menzies the only real "powerful" figureheads Abbadons Margonites and demons have to rally behind. Dhuum (or Menzies as well) could in a sense be trying to repeat what Abbadon tried. Sew enough chaos in Tyria that he could manifest himself here. If he did take over all of Tyria he would stand a much better chance against Grenth (or Balthazar for Menzies) than he would trying to take the god on his home turf.

Remember that it took Abaddon around 1000 years to put his plan into motion, and he was still a fully fledged god.

Considering Dhuum has had his power taken from him to the point of no longer being considered the god of death, i doubt he has the strength to be making "Abadon take over and destroy the world" plans. Also not only Abaddon took a hit - his forces have been beaten aswell. He sent most of them to help Abaddon, probably with the notion that Mortals couldnt stop him, and they were all defeated. The Margonites are pretty much a dead race, and most of the demons that made up Abaddons/Dhuums forces went down with Mallyx. Dhuum has also been beaten in the Underworld.

So with all those losses i doubt he could manage to corrupt anyone let alone know what was going on in Tyria. Infact Corruption seems much more like Abaddon than Dhuum. I'm betting Menzies is in the same situation, but we still dont know if he is a god or not so i wont go any further on that.

Quote:

But again maybe it's just my wishful thinking as a way to finally tie up the Dhuum/Menzies storylines.

I'm willing to bet the Dhuum and Menzies storyline is going to be a large story in Guild Wars 2. So its not even began yet.

Haxor · Oct 09, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

This might be me, and it could be completely unrelated, but a sentence really caught my eye when my char was drinking a Bottle of Grog.

"Yarr. I love ye, man! Yer a good man, mysterious stranger! "

Now granted, it's not much to go on. The first part could easily be led back to alcohol making people more affectionate, but the specific mentioning of "Mysterious Stranger" did catch my eye.

As of yet I've not really been able to point something down with it (besides possibility of the corsairs being on his payroll too), but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 09, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

I never said the Scepter was corrupting in and of itself, the power it has causes temptation to misuse it but not like the Abbadon style corruption I 'm talking about. The Scepter (and it's sister staff, the Staff of Mists) were created by the gods (no specific one is credited to its creation) as a gift to powerful nations of the world for protection.

What I'm suggesting here is that the wielder of the Scepter (in this case Livia) would be able to access the inner most secrets of Arah. Unless I'm mistaken the Scepter & the Staff of Mists are the only artifacts we have that are believed to have been created by the gods themselves.

First, as Free Runner said, the creators are not credited or mentioned at all. The Staves' origins are unknown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

Dhuum is quite weak, however he may not have lost as much as gained from Abbadons defeat. Remember DoA? Abbadon had a truly massive army that needed a new leader, Mallyx took up the role but was defeated too. That leaves Dhuum and Menzies the only real "powerful" figureheads Abbadons Margonites and demons have to rally behind.

Remember DoA? Yeah, I do, I also remember all 4 generals of Mallyx and Mallyx himself was killed, along with most of those forces, and those that were not killed, were imprisoned again. No need for a new general of those forces (which was a combination of the three btw), because there would be too little forces to bother controlling.

Imo, due to the description of Ravenheart Gloom, that is where Menzies himself is hiding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virashak

"Beyond the Gate of Anguish lies Ravenheart Gloom."

Tell me about the Ravenheart Gloom.

"Ravenheart Gloom is a never-ending plane blanketed in darkness. Some say that it leads through the Mists to places even more foreboding than the Realm of Torment, though none who have ventured such paths have returned to tell their tale. It is there that the Order of Whispers fights a desperate battle against a greater darkness and its allies."

What creatures inhabit Ravenheart Gloom?

"This vast plane of shadow is plagued by torment creatures. Demons lurk within the repressive darkness, waiting to step through rifts that give them passage to Elona, Tyria, and beyond. Within these dark confines Balthazar's accursed half-brother Menzies has staged his forces. With Abaddon defeated, they turn now to fight alongside Mallyx the Unyielding in desperation."

We clearly do not explore it all, and this is where Menzies' main forces seem to be. So I think that Menzies, at the time of Nightfall and before, has been hiding in here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

Dhuum (or Menzies as well) could in a sense be trying to repeat what Abbadon tried. Sew enough chaos in Tyria that he could manifest himself here. If he did take over all of Tyria he would stand a much better chance against Grenth (or Balthazar for Menzies) than he would trying to take the god on his home turf.

But again maybe it's just my wishful thinking as a way to finally tie up the Dhuum/Menzies storylines.

Abaddon needed to bring chaos about because he needed to link Tyria to the Realm of Torment. As far as we know, Dhuum and Menzies have no interest in Tyria.

I would love this case to be linked to Dhuum/Menzies as well, and I'm not against you, just against how you theorize things.

Also, how the HECK did you get from "Livia did it" to "Dhuum is behind it"...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I'm willing to bet the Dhuum and Menzies storyline is going to be a large story in Guild Wars 2. So its not even began yet.

I bet it will either be tied up with free additions, a new expansion (even though ANet said nothing more for GW1), or, and most likely, at least one of the three books that will be coming out to fill in the space between GW1 and GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haxor

This might be me, and it could be completely unrelated, but a sentence really caught my eye when my char was drinking a Bottle of Grog.

"Yarr. I love ye, man! Yer a good man, mysterious stranger! "

Now granted, it's not much to go on. The first part could easily be led back to alcohol making people more affectionate, but the specific mentioning of "Mysterious Stranger" did catch my eye.

As of yet I've not really been able to point something down with it (besides possibility of the corsairs being on his payroll too), but I figured I'd throw it out there.

This was brought up in GWO as well. It just deals with drunk people. And that is not by a corsair, but your own character. I don't think it has anything to do with the stranger Zinn met.

Just a drunk guy talking to someone he doesn't know, happens a lot, at least in shows and whatnot.

Gmr Leon · Oct 09, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Also if she had gained the Scepter (which we know she eventually does) there would be no need for Golems and Assassinations - Livia would have her own private army that could help the shining blade.

Which we know she eventually does? What do you mean by that? We do not know whether or not she actually takes the Scepter of Orr. In fact, the cutscene seems to indicate hesitation on her part, which to me implies she does not take the Scepter of Orr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

I don't think it's too much of a strech to say that a similar fate could befall Livia, especially when she wields the Scepter of Orr and specifically states she is going to Arah, the very place Vizier Khillbron came under Abbadon's influence.

Look at my above response.

I'm really getting tired of people elaborating on that cutscene in the fashion of she has it, she took it, when the animations (which probably took a long time to make) of Livia indicate hesitation, and as such imply that she did not take it.

Further support for my idea is also found in that Ogden states, during that cutscene, "New sacrifices would be made." The sacrifice of not taking the Scepter of Orr would be new, would you not agree? No one else has managed to avoid claiming it as their own. The White Mantle took it, the Shining Blade stole it, and Vizier Khilbron took it as well.

No one made the sacrifice of giving up the power it held. I know I've other posts that more eloquently support my point in this, and I may see if I can find it if this area of speculation persists.

Free Runner · Oct 10, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Which we know she eventually does? What do you mean by that? We do not know whether or not she actually takes the Scepter of Orr. In fact, the cutscene seems to indicate hesitation on her part, which to me implies she does not take the Scepter of Orr.

Well yes but like you said we dont find out if she took it or not.

What you take to be her hesitating and turning away, i take to be her hesitating due to a "do i or dont i" decision that a person usually strays into when facing such a powerful object - which in my view is her taking the Scepter. You cannot ultimatly say she didnt take the Sceptar and i cannot say she did take the Scepter. We will only know when Anet reveals.

But ether way my point still stands doesnt it? if she did take the Scepter then she would have no need for the Golems, and if she didnt then do you really think she would be able to order the assassinations of the most powerful people in Tyria?

Konig Des Todes · Oct 10, 2008, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Further support for my idea is also found in that Ogden states, during that cutscene, "New sacrifices would be made." The sacrifice of not taking the Scepter of Orr would be new, would you not agree? No one else has managed to avoid claiming it as their own. The White Mantle took it, the Shining Blade stole it, and Vizier Khilbron took it as well.

No one made the sacrifice of giving up the power it held. I know I've other posts that more eloquently support my point in this, and I may see if I can find it if this area of speculation persists.

That actually makes more sense then what I thought the sacrifice line meant. Which was the sacrifice of lives to make new undead (excluding Shiro, all those who use dead bodies or souls use already dead, they don't go off and kill to make new minions themselves, so far).

draxynnic · Oct 10, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

Also if she had gained the Scepter (which we know she eventually does) there would be no need for Golems and Assassinations - Livia would have her own private army that could help the shining blade.

Would she? The Titans have been virtually if not entirely wiped out, and given that the Vizier was the Lich and had control of the undead all along, I'm tempted to think that the Sceptre had nothing to do with it - he was just using the Sceptre as a cover to stop people from thinking too much on why else he might be able to control them.

Heck, even if there is an army of Titans around, the theory has been made that the Sceptre didn't control them either, but instead that Abaddon commanded the Titans to follow the Vizier's instructions.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 10, 2008, 03:48 AM // 03:48

There are two theories regarding the Scepter of Orr and what allowed Khilbron to control Undead/Titans.

1) Abaddon said "follow the guy waving the stick" *as Khilbron didn't know the Titans would follow him* and the Undead only follow Khilbron because he was a lich.

2) The Undead followed Khilbron because he was a lich, but also the Scepter of Orr allows the weilder to control undead/spirits. And it is the controlling of spirits that allowed the controlling of Titans (as Titans are made from tortured spirits).

I go with the latter, as that gives the Scepter of Orr more power for a powerful object (but the former would match with what we know of the Staff of the Mists better).

Free Runner · Oct 10, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Would she? The Titans have been virtually if not entirely wiped out, and given that the Vizier was the Lich and had control of the undead all along, I'm tempted to think that the Sceptre had nothing to do with it - he was just using the Sceptre as a cover to stop people from thinking too much on why else he might be able to control them.

Heck, even if there is an army of Titans around, the theory has been made that the Sceptre didn't control them either, but instead that Abaddon commanded the Titans to follow the Vizier's instructions.

The Scepter is said to control forces from beyond reality. Its never really said to be limited to Titans - the Lich just goes after them. We also cant be sure that they dont have other powers - both the staff and the scepter were once used to the point of the gods having to step in after all.

Gmr Leon · Oct 10, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

There are two theories regarding the Scepter of Orr and what allowed Khilbron to control Undead/Titans.

1) Abaddon said "follow the guy waving the stick" *as Khilbron didn't know the Titans would follow him* and the Undead only follow Khilbron because he was a lich.

2) The Undead followed Khilbron because he was a lich, but also the Scepter of Orr allows the weilder to control undead/spirits. And it is the controlling of spirits that allowed the controlling of Titans (as Titans are made from tortured spirits).

I go with the latter, as that gives the Scepter of Orr more power for a powerful object (but the former would match with what we know of the Staff of the Mists better).

While it probably is because he's a Lich, I also think it falls in line with the fact that the Orrian Undead retained their chain of command after death. If the King falls, or is unable to be found alive, it's most likely that if he did not have a son, or even if he did have a son and they were unable to find him as well, the next person in line would be the King's adviser, who is Vizier Khilbron.

This actually brings a strange thought to mind, about the King of Orr, but it's not relevant to this topic.